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Griffin Smith's avatar

The permissive reading is the right one and the mango example cuts through the confusion cleanly. The problem was never the desire for better food or finer experiences. The problem is when groundless opinion gets its hooks into what was originally a simple natural desire and turns it into something you can't put down.

The sub-category of desires necessary for happiness is what i find most interesting here. Most treatments of this taxonomy focus on the physical necessities and then treat everything else as optional. But Epicurus placing friendship in the natural and necessary category is not a minor addition. It is the whole architecture of how he thought a good life actually works. The desire for genuine connection is not a luxury category. It is as necessary as food and shelter. That realization alone separates Epicurean hedonism from every crude version of it.

Looking forward to the romantic relationships piece next week.

Matthias Engel's avatar

Great topic, when I learned about the natural/necessary desires for me it was an eye-opener that happiness (Eudaimonia) is one of them. That includes for me all the mental pleasures like ataraxia, peace of mind and harmony with the others, philia (friendship, friendly love), being free from superstition and fears about it, clear conscience.

It is not about hiding from pain like an ascetic or always regarding health and longevity as the ultimate good. It is about living according to your Values.

How would you contrast this teaching with the Stoic teaching about Desires ? They allow Desire (orexis) only for Virtue / Eudaimonia. All other things means selecting between indifferents which have Value (Axia) that means they have impulse (horme) to them like life/health but it is expendable.

They allow Desire (orexis ) only for the highest good (Virtue for them) which means it is always desirable. They argue that happiness is then not dependable from life/health and so they are more free and have more resilience in hardships.

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